From sz Fri Jul 16 21:22:42 1999
To: _______
Subject: Grading policy
If I had my bearings this afternoon, I would have pursued the matter of an alternative to covered grades (freshman pass/fail). However, it may be just as well that I give you some time to ponder the following.
The pass/fail is meant to help adjustment, but it also serves to hamper adjustment. I called it a "welfare system", for it encourages people (you know, human nature and all that) to put in a minimum effort to pass. Students who do that are definitely avoiding academic adjustment. As one student whom I barely knew put it, pass/fail enabled him (and others) to remain in high school one semester longer. That is the absolute opposite of academic adjustment.
I deliberately ran my Calc II course high---reasonably high for JHU science and engineering students, I claim---yet it doesn't take all that much to make a C- in it. Maybe it was asking a lot [from] students who had avoided adjusting academically in the Fall Semester!
People tend to think of the alternative to pass/fail as graded courses. Isn't there anything else the university could do to help adjustment other than absolute "welfare", with harmful consequences as above? I have made a proposal, one that still makes sense to me, but it had "political problems" in Spring '98. I don't want to ask you to judge it yet, but rather, I hope you can come up with some fresh idea. I think you understand the situation.
I'm always happy when I see serious students benefit [Added later: academically] from the pass/fail system. Usually, it involves the student's realizing, only in time for the final exam, what it takes to learn mathematics in a serious way; their final exam grade of A- is a marked improvement over past performance.
Kindly remind me of why you were taking Calc I in the Fall, and what your SAT Math score was. (I'm sure that you realize that I have high respect for you as a student.)
Steve Zucker
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From _______ Mon Jul 26 13:47:32 1999
Subject: Re: Grading grading policy
Hi Dr. Zucker,
I've been thinking about what you said. I can see how having a pass/fail or S/U first semester can make students slack off and be detrimental in the lond run. However, I don't think this is true for all students. I think every system is going to have its kinks and people will find ways to abuse it if they want to. However, for the students who do not take their academics seriously first semester, the only person it hurts is themselves. For serious students, they might not work as hard as they would if grades were a factor. However they also realize that if they want to get into med school or grad school, their first semester grades will be seen by the schools. Of course I don't really know if graduate schools will dwell on first semester grades. I'm sure if they were horrible, that would not be good for the student.
I think that for most students, first semester is a time to make friends and get adjusted. First semester for me was a time for exploring clubs, organization, etc. If I had to worry about grades as much, I don't think I would have had the chance to explore these other aspects of college life. And I don't think college is just about academics. One of the reasons I'm slightly jaded about Hopkins is that I don't think Hopkins students are involved enough. First semester provides time to look into community involvement and to discover what program suits the students.
I think that most hardworking students don't slack off the first semester anyhow. My friends and I actually think we worked much harder than we had to and feel burnt out. Sometimes, too much studying can be a bad thing. I think it's neccessary to balance academics with extracurricular activities.
I really appreciate the pass/fail first semester, even though I did work really hard and I actually got a 3.72, which isn't that bad. Also, students who get below a 2.0 face academic probation, so there is a limit to how poor grades can be.
I know a lot of students take first semester grading for granted. But those students hurt only themselves. I think as a whole, the grading system, albeit flawed in some ways, is for the most part fair and helpful. I don't think I can meet with you this evening. I'm not sure when my labwork will be done. I hope everything is fine with you and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
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From sz Mon Jul 26 13:52:41 1999
To: _______
Subject: Re: Grading grading policy
If you want to contribute more to today's "discussion", the place is now my office, around 7:00 or so. I'm expecting two other students, and they will (allegedly) be here 6:30 and 7:30.
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From sz Sun Aug 1 13:17:00 1999
To: _______
Subject: Grading the grading of grading policy : )
Recall what I wrote on July 26:
>> I'm expecting two other students, and they will (allegedly) be here
>> 6:30 and 7:30.
The word "allegedly" was meant to communicate the students' avowed attention to show up. From experience, I know that students don't have it as a high priority---take that neutrally---to discuss such things with a professor. Even getting some of my choice people to write those letters about doing well in my course was like pulling teeth!
The 6:30 didn't show, though he was quick to make it up later. The 7:30 was absolutely prompt!
You wrote:
> I can see how having a pass/fail or S/U first semester can make
> students slack off and be detrimental in the lond run. However, I
> don't think this is true for all students. I think every system is
> going to have its kinks and people will find ways to abuse it if
> they want to. However, for the students who do not take their
> academics seriously first semester, the only person it hurts is
> themselves.
I agree that "abusing" (using the "kinks" for [apparent] advantage) it is not a serious problem with perhaps half the students. It's the other half I'm complaining about. In my book, the kinks are part of the system, not an abuse as many would say. And the more immature 18-year-olds don't always think in terms of the big picture, of what even the next semester will bring (consider our course S'98).
If you think that having a problem with half the class isn't enough to mess things up for the instructor, .... Thus, it is false that the only ones who are hurt are the kinkers. Maybe I should make my course easier so that I cover up the problem with the kinkers, and have a higher "success" (sic!) rate. Maybe run the course so that the textbook doesn't have to be read. It has been done at JHU, to great acclaim; it's anathema to me: high school teaching at a university like ours!
At any rate, the effects of the kinks must be included when we assess the system. (I doubt you'd approve of a system that automatically passed everybody, for instance.)
> I think as a whole, the grading system, albeit flawed in some ways,
> is for the most part fair and helpful.
With all due respect, how can you say it's fair? None of our peer institutions have it. It may well be that freshman grading is a major cause of the lower mean GPA at Hopkins.
I think it is equally unfair and unhelpful as it is fair and helpful. It creates a false impression of what it means for a student to do well in a course if any sort of curve is used to make final course grades. And if, as it was in my case until I'd been here for several years, that the instructor is not aware of the system, and one tries to gain by experience what our students can and can't do, it creates a misleading impression.
PS--An oldie:
>> Kindly remind me of why you were taking Calc I in the Fall, and
>> what your SAT Math score was.
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[Sent subsequently]
Some clarifications:
When I wrote:
>> Maybe I should make my course easier so that I cover up the problem
>> with the kinkers, and have a higher "success" (sic!) rate. Maybe
>> run the course so that the textbook doesn't have to be read. It
>> has been done at JHU, to great acclaim; it's anathema to me: high
>> school teaching at a university like ours!
The last sentence refers to Bio Sci Calc II (Fall '97), by the way. The "acclaim" was from the students. Exams had means of 75-80%. A priori evidence of "successful teaching"? The students didn't learn much, by the way (or, "of course"). I guess that's OK? The kinkers liked it. Are we to run our courses low because of the kinkers?! Thus, I view running a course like that as abusing the system; rather, since by my stance THE ABUSE IS PART OF THE SYSTEM, I want to drum out highschool-in-college by discrediting such superficial successes as indications of abuse. It's a difficult battle, I assure you.
I also wrote:
>> It may well be that freshman grading is a major cause of the lower
>> mean GPA at Hopkins.
I'll clarify. No instructor likes to give high grades for mediocre performance. I'd expect the performance of JHU students in the second semester to be worse than those at our peer institutions, where almost all of the students adjust academically in the first semester. I don't know by how much, but the absolute performance has to be worse. If it's worse by enough (and also in subsequent semesters?), the mean GPA will be lower.
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From _______ Tue Aug 3 14:01:39 1999
Subject: Re: Grading the grading of grading policy : )
Dr. Zucker,
I took Calc I in the fall because I thought my high school Calc background was weak. Even though I placed out of it, I thought it would be beneficial just to review it. I did not want to burden myself with too many hard classes first semester. My SAT I math score was *** and my SAT II math score was about the same. Anyhow, if you want to discuss anything further, please let me know.